tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post4942542496803394093..comments2023-03-30T07:16:44.476-04:00Comments on Trac Changes: YA Cover Trends and the Fairy Tale ArchetypeRachel Starkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12888199803208394249noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-9143775606304837352012-01-02T21:37:35.850-05:002012-01-02T21:37:35.850-05:00Also this is fascinating. Thank you.Also this is fascinating. Thank you.Penni Russonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17956453252195293843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-63482164329833530712012-01-02T21:37:20.796-05:002012-01-02T21:37:20.796-05:00I have no problem with the motif of death - I writ...I have no problem with the motif of death - I write about it a lot myself, characters who come into contact with their mirror-dead selves or who travel through something of an underworld in order to retrieve what they have lost. Death is significant and Oedipal, which is pretty much how I would describe YA fiction. I think the project of YA is about voice - giving voices to characters who otherwise recede into archetype from the distancing third person of the fairytale narrator. So I am for it.<br /><br />But the static beautiful dead girl covers still bug me.Penni Russonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17956453252195293843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-18395198936405872912011-12-03T12:23:45.880-05:002011-12-03T12:23:45.880-05:00Buffy! Buffy dies not once, but twice. Her first ...Buffy! Buffy dies not once, but twice. Her first death is a bit damsel-in-distress-y, like the fairytale trope, but her second return to life is incredibly dark.Dalya Moonhttp://dalyamoon.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-44335130770717190792011-12-03T03:02:45.462-05:002011-12-03T03:02:45.462-05:00Oh I just love this post! The comparison between ...Oh I just love this post! The comparison between the death and rebirth cycle for males and females in traditional stories gives me much to think about when crafting my own work.<br /><br />Victoria Schwab is your roommate?!? That apartment has way to much mojo ::faints::Sophia Changhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10946233873722107937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-2714563564812810362011-12-02T16:57:00.996-05:002011-12-02T16:57:00.996-05:00However, I'd just like to add that tha fairyta...However, I'd just like to add that tha fairytales most often cited in these comments - Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, with their obviously passive heroines, are not necessarily at all typical of fairytales in general, many of which have extremely vigorous and adventurous heroines: Molly Whuppie, the Master-Maid, Lady Mary and the heroine of 'Fitcher's Bird', both of whom see off the Bluebeard figures in their respective tales, and the intrepid heroine of 'East of the Sun, West of the Moon' who rescues the Prince. The fact that our best known fairytales are those with passive heroines is not a reflection upon fairytale as a genre, but upon anthology choices and rewritings made - often - in the early 20th century and perpetuated ever since.Katherine Langrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12529700103932422873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-70470193659688099042011-12-02T10:32:00.875-05:002011-12-02T10:32:00.875-05:00I think death is a very important aspect in storie...I think death is a very important aspect in stories, whether the person who dies comes back to life or remains dead. If it's the MC who dies, I think that death would be a symbol of letting go, moving on, or rebirth. And if it's a supporting character who dies, I think it moves a long the story by presenting the MC with a problem. Sad thing to think about, but very nice post!Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000569858548717605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-4764715843234298882011-12-02T10:29:38.682-05:002011-12-02T10:29:38.682-05:00Or, let's take this as a call for radical rete...Or, let's take this as a call for radical retellings. I've read two retellings of fairy tales with female heroines this year that I found very interesting and empowering: Anne Ursu's lovely Breadcrumbs, and Anna Sheehan's A Long, Long, Sleep. Retellings of The Snow Queen and Sleeping Beauty, respectively. A Long, Long Sleep's MC "awakens" emotionally, psychologically, into a powerful female adulthood.<br /><br />What a great discussion this has been, BTW.Gail Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16998497900316232330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-29349421456687366782011-12-02T04:59:30.400-05:002011-12-02T04:59:30.400-05:00What's interesting to me about the fairy tale ...What's interesting to me about the fairy tale argument is that while it perpetuates misogynistic ideals, fairy tales are also traditionally the territory of women storytellers. As memory serves, Perrault's primary audience was comprised of women. And folk tales are usually passed along in the home, from women or nursemaids to children (and other women). <br /><br />The fact that so many women have feature roles in fairytales is indicative of the beginning of a cultural shift. For example, look at how little "air time" women characters get in Greek literature, compared to fairytales. I see a definite progressive movement. <br /><br />...Sorry if this makes no sense...it's 3AM and I may be a bit more braindead than I should be while commenting on such a thought-provoking topic.tlbodinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08334888426768433724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-45635500975027201872011-12-02T02:44:12.557-05:002011-12-02T02:44:12.557-05:00Off on a bit of a diversionary track but:
'I ...Off on a bit of a diversionary track but:<br /><br />'I don’t think Perrault or the Brothers Grim was ever trying to perpetuate a typical female role, as much as they were telling (or retelling as the case may be) the stories of their time in the hopes of finding an audience.'<br /><br />I'd argue that Perrault, Hans Christian and the Grim boys (man I want that to be a band, or a gang in a Brenna Yovanoff story) were possibly both relecting society because they were looking for an audience and because they were a part of that society. Maybe they weren't actively looking to perpetuate unvaried female roles as a form of oppression, but they were all taking active part in a society which valued women in a certain way. So, yes they were reflecting the society around them, but they weren't sat apart from that society and their actions did keep reinforcing common ideas about women (simply by not creating a space for any opposing ideas). I've no doubt that the social construct comes first and stories are shaped by writers experiences, but I do think that the continued creation of an unvaried narrative also shapes society, or at least prevents it from reshaping itself.Jodiehttp://bookgazing.dreamwidth.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-692836440029214822011-12-01T16:14:22.415-05:002011-12-01T16:14:22.415-05:00This post, and the preceding discussion, is defini...This post, and the preceding discussion, is definitely interesting. But to argue it as misogynist, as though it were the antithesis to feminism, is misleading.<br />Misogyny implies a hatred of women. Feminism is a philosophy of equal rights. Feminists don't always hate males. Conversely, those who subscribe to the traditional role of “woman” (to identify herself through her husband) don't always hate women. Many even are women (this is a growing trend in our current western society, btw, to cling to that traditional/biblical assignment).<br /><br />I think Poe was on to something. From the earliest of stories, wasn’t the most alluring that which told the love story? Traditionally those stories involved men loving women. And even today, there is nothing more tragic than a love story involving death. <br /><br />But I think we’re giving most writers too much credit for shaping society. It is much more likely that we simply try to capture its shape in the art of our words. Who among us starts a story because we want to influence or perpetuate a social construct? I’d argue the social construct generally comes first. It is ingrained in the writer as the result of his/her nurturing/nature. The stories that unfold are then a result of the stories and experiences that shape us. I don’t think Perrault or the Brothers Grim was ever trying to perpetuate a typical female role, as much as they were telling (or retelling as the case may be) the stories of their time in the hopes of finding an audience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-68586103883385081002011-12-01T16:06:04.470-05:002011-12-01T16:06:04.470-05:00Marian, I don't think it's fair to say tha...Marian, I don't think it's fair to say that puffy dresses and princess fantasies are entirely unfeminist but there is a distinct lack of balance and it is in the lack of balance that problems arise.<br /><br />There are plenty of men out there who only care about fashion and want to be a Prince of sorts but they're not usually deified by the media. Often they're "fops" or weak characters in books and movies. Yet this is displayed as a perfectly acceptable way of being for a woman.<br /><br />I don't think we should get rid of fairytales because they're an historical look into our culture but I do think we need to start balancing them out with more than just a girl needing to be rescued.Kat Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05768408902595007324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-60762802534895287802011-12-01T15:47:59.685-05:002011-12-01T15:47:59.685-05:00Excellent post with which I completely agree!Excellent post with which I completely agree!Kat Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05768408902595007324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-75220186711375712112011-12-01T12:52:10.049-05:002011-12-01T12:52:10.049-05:00I think that while fairy tales have some incredibl...I think that while fairy tales have some incredibly misogynist qualities, we have to make room for them as feminists. Fairy tales remain popular, they're not going away. Fairy tale reboots are too common to be called a "trend" in literature, they are more a staple. Obviously, despite their flaws, there is an appeal in the fantasy of them that we need to accept. Can we label people as anti-feminist because they dream of pretty dresses and Prince Charmings?<br /><br />What I think is important is to keep shifting the fairy tale, nudging it slightly into a better narrative, one where it goes from an outdated morality tale to a story with fuller formed characters. I think a lot of YA is doing that really well now, though it can swing the other way "the uber feminist princess."<br /><br />And while I agree that the "death" of childhood to marriage archetype is upsetting, it is not new nor located centrally in fairy tales. In many stories, attaining the love interest is the central conflict/climax of the story. Again, there is nothing wrong with that, but we need to continue to contextualize it as a choice instead of a surrender.Marian Librarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911689316782199423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4813061146389790146.post-36345026212646153042011-12-01T12:51:46.127-05:002011-12-01T12:51:46.127-05:00As a YA author, I'm not interested in making a...As a YA author, I'm not interested in making archetypes/tropes/whatever into GOOD things, or bad things for that matter. I'm interested in making them COMPLICATED things. (And that's exactly what you're doing in this post which is why I love it.) <br /><br />Growing up is about learning about how blurred the lines between "good" and "bad" can be, and I think that's one reason fairy tales are still so popular, esp in YA - because they appear so rigidly good/evil, but they offer us such a great template for saying "ok, but what was that really about? what were the choices there? how is this relevant now?"<br /><br />And death in YA = universal. Everybody experiences death, literally and metaphorically, and as you grow up, you have to come to terms with that. You can't be an adult without facing it somehow, without understanding how it affects you and those you love.Tessa Grattonhttp://tessagratton.comnoreply@blogger.com